A Forgotten Bit of History

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A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby rallycat » March 11th 2013, 1:53am

The local rag ran a story this morning about a group claiming to represent the real Republic of Texas and their peaceful mission to dwell apart from the Union. One of their claims is that the votes of 1845 were fixed and that the state is now occupied. Shame that neither they nor the few dozen responding to the article bothered to learn much more than the coloring book version of our great state's history. So I wrote the below. You may claim I'm a nut too but at least I feel I stand on firm historical ground when I claim that we are occupied and though not covered below that Reconstruction was the second phase of the war.

The notion of Texas as occupied territory is not so far fetched though it dates from more recent history.

When Texas seceded from the US in 1861 it became a state of the CSA. Following the military defeat of 1865 federal troops did occupy the state and have been here ever since.

Something that tends to get lost in our history textbooks and translation is how the states were brought back into the union. This was done on a state by state basis that can be argued made each one a nation state (and in many ways they were as such under the intentionally weak central government of the Confederacy). Texas was merely an occupied enemy territory until 1870 when it finally met the conditions for readmission to the US and voted to rejoin. Never mind that the legislators and voting public bore almost no resemblance to the actual body politic of 1861 and before. That group was generally either federally barred from voting/holding office or refused to swear allegiance/request clemency for having served the CSA. Most of those who could vote refused to do so as their way of demonstrating that the whole process was a sham.



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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby eddiea » March 12th 2013, 3:24am

rallycat wrote:The local rag ran a story this morning about a group claiming to represent the real Republic of Texas and their peaceful mission to dwell apart from the Union. One of their claims is that the votes of 1845 were fixed and that the state is now occupied. Shame that neither they nor the few dozen responding to the article bothered to learn much more than the coloring book version of our great state's history. So I wrote the below. You may claim I'm a nut too but at least I feel I stand on firm historical ground when I claim that we are occupied and though not covered below that Reconstruction was the second phase of the war.

The notion of Texas as occupied territory is not so far fetched though it dates from more recent history.

When Texas seceded from the US in 1861 it became a state of the CSA. Following the military defeat of 1865 federal troops did occupy the state and have been here ever since.

Something that tends to get lost in our history textbooks and translation is how the states were brought back into the union. This was done on a state by state basis that can be argued made each one a nation state (and in many ways they were as such under the intentionally weak central government of the Confederacy). Texas was merely an occupied enemy territory until 1870 when it finally met the conditions for readmission to the US and voted to rejoin. Never mind that the legislators and voting public bore almost no resemblance to the actual body politic of 1861 and before. That group was generally either federally barred from voting/holding office or refused to swear allegiance/request clemency for having served the CSA. Most of those who could vote refused to do so as their way of demonstrating that the whole process was a sham.

A bit of history indeed , but not as forgotten as you think.....
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby Wasp » March 12th 2013, 4:21am

11.17.12

By The Raleigh Telegram

RALEIGH – In recent weeks, over 113,354 people have signed a petition on a special section of the White House website called “We The People” saying they are in favor of the Texas state seceding from the United States.

Still a popular movement
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby foghorn » March 12th 2013, 4:31am

I'll sign it and I'm not even from Texas. Good riddance. Their toast is too thick and their tea tastes awful!
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby rallycat » March 12th 2013, 4:44am

Wasp wrote:11.17.12

By The Raleigh Telegram

RALEIGH – In recent weeks, over 113,354 people have signed a petition on a special section of the White House website called “We The People” saying they are in favor of the Texas state seceding from the United States.

Still a popular movement


True though originally the act of secession was not specifically prohibited by law. Despite popular belief we do not have a legal right to secede that is codified by any agreement between Texas and the Feds. One could argue that as the 1870 vote wasn't popular or representative of the will of the people that might not be so much the case. In my view we're like Scotland. The need to rebuild and move on pretty much subsumed the desire to carry on the fight and we have gotten used to the arrangement.

Many veterans did get a little payback in the end through the Confederate pension program that began in the 1890s. Meeting the qualifications was something of a sham for proving indigence or inability to perform one's vocation due to wartime injuries. A 2nd great grandfather claimed he couldn't due to constipation and rheumatoid arthritis resulting from campaigning. Interesting as he was a lawyer. The pension process wasn't the most above board thing. At least it provides me with examples of family signatures and interesting stationery - not to mention filling in back story on their lives.

I found it sadly funny that the Republic of Texas group doesn't seem to know its history very well. Neither do many people.

As I wrote this I spied a dual time zone pocket watch for sale that likely saw service in the war. It had a dial for at home and one for in camp.
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby rallycat » March 12th 2013, 4:46am

foghorn wrote:I'll sign it and I'm not even from Texas. Good riddance. Their toast is too thick and their tea tastes awful!


Ha ha. Texas toast is a silly thingy indeed. First time I saw it was in New York.
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby Wasp » March 12th 2013, 5:14am

[font='Verdana']The Argument: [/font]

Current Texas Constitution[1] (adopted in 1876) or the terms of annexation.[2] However, it does state (in Article 1, Section 1) that "Texas is a free and independent State, subject only to the Constitution of the United States..." (note that it does not state "...subject to the President of the United States..." or "...subject to the Congress of the United States..." or "...subject to the collective will of one or more of the other States...")

Neither the Texas Constitution, nor the Constitution of the united States, explicitly or implicitly disallows the secession of Texas (or any other "free and independent State") from the United States. Joining the "Union" was ever and always voluntary, rendering voluntary withdrawal an equally lawful and viable option (regardless of what any self-appointed academic, media, or government "experts"—including Abraham Lincoln himself—may have ever said).

Both the original (1836) and the current (1876) Texas Constitutions also state that "All political power is inherent in the people ... they have at all times the inalienable right to alter their government in such manner as they might think proper."

Likewise, each of the united States is "united" with the others explicitly on the principle that "governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed" and "whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends [i.e., protecting life, liberty, and property], it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government" and "when a long train of abuses and usurpations...evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." [3]

Notes
[1] See The Texas Constitution Online [RETURN TO TEXT]

[2] See the Terms of Annexation Online [RETURN TO TEXT]

[3] See the Declaration of Independence Online [RETURN TO TEXT]

[4], [5], [6] See Battle Cry of Freedom: The Civil War Era by James M. McPherson; The Real Lincoln by Thomas J. DiLorenzo; A Consitutional History of Secession by John R. Graham; Emancipating Slaves, Enslaving Free Men by Jeffrey R. Hummel; When in the Course of Human Events by Charles Adams; Union And Liberty by John C. Calhoun; States' Rights and the Union by Forrest McDonald [RETURN TO TEXT]

[7] See the Declaration of Independence Online [RETURN TO TEXT]

[8] See DemocracyIsNotFreedom.com for details. [RETURN TO TEXT]

[font='Trebuchet MS']TexasSecede.org[/font]



[font='Verdana']I also hope they secede. Washington needs a slap in the face.[/font]
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby DoctorIvey » March 12th 2013, 5:59am

foghorn wrote:I'll sign it and I'm not even from Texas. Good riddance. Their toast is too thick and their tea tastes awful!


Perhaps. But I love their Timex...
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby conjurer » March 12th 2013, 6:35am

As a guy who really doesn't dwell in the past or give much thought about genealogy (which can be interesting but I believe too many place too much emphasis on our long dusty-dead forebears), still, with two ancestors who perished at Andersonville prison, I don't have a lot of love for the secessionists.

I checked you out, and I now want you to take the journey to lick my taint. It's small, but vast.


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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby BigCheez » March 12th 2013, 6:47am

conjurer wrote:As a guy who really doesn't dwell in the past or give much thought about genealogy (which can be interesting but I believe too many place too much emphasis on our long dusty-dead forebears), still, with two ancestors who perished at Andersonville prison, I don't have a lot of love for the secessionists.



As someone who was born in what was then Indian Territory at the time, I'll take a pass from re-litigating the war between the states. I was surprised however when an old woman, in all seriousness, called it the "war of northern aggression".

I guess perspective depends on where one was born and that even with it 150 years ago, some of the wounds remain.
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby Falstaff » March 12th 2013, 7:08am

Yup, the winners get to write the history. The passing of time gives it creedence.
"General, those brave men will not surrender - what shall we do?"
"Kill them all then, colonel. I would not have them be brave in the Devil's service!"

Major Gen'l. Thomas J. Jackson CSA
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby conjurer » March 12th 2013, 7:53am

BigCheez wrote:
conjurer wrote:As a guy who really doesn't dwell in the past or give much thought about genealogy (which can be interesting but I believe too many place too much emphasis on our long dusty-dead forebears), still, with two ancestors who perished at Andersonville prison, I don't have a lot of love for the secessionists.



As someone who was born in what was then Indian Territory at the time, I'll take a pass from re-litigating the war between the states. I was surprised however when an old woman, in all seriousness, called it the "war of northern aggression".

I guess perspective depends on where one was born and that even with it 150 years ago, some of the wounds remain.


Quite so. I find it historically interesting, too, that the Civil War--the first truly modern-age war (rifled muskets, the wide use of exploding shells, telegraphs to quickly send and receive orders and information, railroads to quickly move troops and supplies, armored warships, etc.) drew the interest of the great European powers, all of which sent observers to report back their impressions. It's a shame that the European powers didn't learn from our national calamity by, say, 1914.
I checked you out, and I now want you to take the journey to lick my taint. It's small, but vast.


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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby rallycat » March 12th 2013, 10:49am

conjurer wrote:
BigCheez wrote:
conjurer wrote:As a guy who really doesn't dwell in the past or give much thought about genealogy (which can be interesting but I believe too many place too much emphasis on our long dusty-dead forebears), still, with two ancestors who perished at Andersonville prison, I don't have a lot of love for the secessionists.



As someone who was born in what was then Indian Territory at the time, I'll take a pass from re-litigating the war between the states. I was surprised however when an old woman, in all seriousness, called it the "war of northern aggression".

I guess perspective depends on where one was born and that even with it 150 years ago, some of the wounds remain.


Quite so. I find it historically interesting, too, that the Civil War--the first truly modern-age war (rifled muskets, the wide use of exploding shells, telegraphs to quickly send and receive orders and information, railroads to quickly move troops and supplies, armored warships, etc.) drew the interest of the great European powers, all of which sent observers to report back their impressions. It's a shame that the European powers didn't learn from our national calamity by, say, 1914.


I hear you, Conjurer. I think the love was lost here with the men we lost too, including one who was rolled into a shallow grave at Gettysburg for a time. I will say studying history and especially family really helps to determine how we wind up with certain attitudes and proclivities. There were three critters my grandfather couldn't stand; blacks, Louisianans, and Yankees. This to the point where my father went to UT law because grandad wouldn't pay for him to go to school with "those people" of Harvard and Tulane.

That being said I say that despite misgivings and all from the past we generally have to learn to coexist peacefully. The part that bothers me is when we're forced to bury our past completely and deny that they may have had some just cause for their actions or that there were many decent and honorable men who joined.

Sometimes I'm in favor of secession but then I think of what that could do to our investments and get cold chills.

You'd really think the Europeans would have remembered the lessons of trench warfare as that was a first from this war and showed no sign of being anything but a horrible meat grinder for both sides. Forgetfulness, willing or no, can be costly.
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby eddiea » March 13th 2013, 4:38am

BigCheez wrote:
I was surprised however when an old woman, in all seriousness, called it the "war of northern aggression".
I guess perspective depends on where one was born and that even with it 150 years ago, some of the wounds remain.

Don't be surprised , I heard people actually believing Mr. Lincoln freed all slaves, or acting in shock, when they learn about William Tecumseh Sherman not particularly stellar record as a military commander, lack of luster he happily compensated with well honed skills, mass murdering civilians in the South.
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby NorthCountry » March 13th 2013, 5:24am

conjurer wrote:
BigCheez wrote:
conjurer wrote:As a guy who really doesn't dwell in the past or give much thought about genealogy (which can be interesting but I believe too many place too much emphasis on our long dusty-dead forebears), still, with two ancestors who perished at Andersonville prison, I don't have a lot of love for the secessionists.



As someone who was born in what was then Indian Territory at the time, I'll take a pass from re-litigating the war between the states. I was surprised however when an old woman, in all seriousness, called it the "war of northern aggression".

I guess perspective depends on where one was born and that even with it 150 years ago, some of the wounds remain.


Quite so. I find it historically interesting, too, that the Civil War--the first truly modern-age war (rifled muskets, the wide use of exploding shells, telegraphs to quickly send and receive orders and information, railroads to quickly move troops and supplies, armored warships, etc.) drew the interest of the great European powers, all of which sent observers to report back their impressions. It's a shame that the European powers didn't learn from our national calamity by, say, 1914.


Even so, General McClellan did nothing fast.....pissed off Lincoln to no end. The story was told that President Lincoln said to some colleagues: "General
McClellan's tardiness and unwillingness to fight the enemy or follow up
advantages gained, reminds me of a man back in Illinois who knew a few law
phrases but whose lawyer lacked aggressiveness. The man finally lost all
patience and springing to his feet vociferated, 'Why don't you go at him with a
fi. fa., a demurrer, a capias, a surrebutter, or a ne exeat, or something; or a
nundam pactum or a non est?' I wish McClellan would go at the enemy with
something - I don't care what. General McClellan is a pleasant and scholarly
gentleman. He is an admirable engineer, but he seems to have a special talent
for a stationary engine."
Perhaps the worst general of the war.

Mr. Lincoln himself recalled: "After the battle of Antietam, I went up to the
field to try to get him to move & came back thinking he would move at once.
But when I got home he began to argue why he ought not to move. I peremptorily
ordered him to advance. It was 19 days before he put a man over the [Potomac]
river. It was 9 days longer before he got his army across and then he stopped
again, delaying on little pretexts of wanting this and that. I began to fear he
was playing false - that he did not want to hurt the enemy. I saw how he could
intercept the enemy on the way to Richmond. I determined to make that the test.
If he let them get away I would remove him. He did so & I relieved him."
69 In the fall of 1862, Mr. Lincoln told Stoddard: "Well, well, I
will say it: for organizing an army, for preparing an army for the field, for
fighting a defensive campaign, I will back General McClellan against any general
of modern times. I don't know but of ancient times, either. But I begin to
believe that he will never get ready to go forward." 70 President
Lincoln's impatience should have been overwhelmingly obvious to McClellan. At
one point in October, the President telegraphed McClellan: "I have just received
your dispatch about sore tongued and fatiegued [sic] horses. Will you pardon me
for asking what the horses of your army have done since the battle of Antietam
that fatigue anything?" 71
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby Falstaff » March 13th 2013, 5:47am

"Then there is nothing left for me to do but to go and see General Grant, and I would rather die a thousand deaths."
Gen. Robert E. Lee CSA to Gen. John B. Gordon CSA, April 9th 1865 Appomattox Courthouse
"General, those brave men will not surrender - what shall we do?"
"Kill them all then, colonel. I would not have them be brave in the Devil's service!"

Major Gen'l. Thomas J. Jackson CSA
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby mosc » March 13th 2013, 8:55am

What a great country we would have if Texas left the union.
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby boscoe » March 13th 2013, 9:03am

Texas can be broken into six states - under its Constitution. (If I remember correctly from my time covering the State House).
Let's let 'em do it.
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby BigCheez » March 13th 2013, 9:08am

mosc wrote:What a great country we would have if Texas left the union.

Spoken like a resident of ALLENTOWN Image
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby Luftwafflles » March 13th 2013, 9:43am

I love the Realm of Texas. The Alamo, excellent politics, very little gun control, and a very efficient and somewhat speedy death penalty. What's not to love?
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby rallycat » March 13th 2013, 10:44am

Luftwafflles wrote:I love the Realm of Texas. The Alamo, excellent politics, very little gun control, and a very efficient and somewhat speedy death penalty. What's not to love?


Don't forget San Jacinto, TexMex food, Dick Dowling, The Farmers Union, Sissy Spacek despite her bogus commercial description of Quitman, undsoweiter.

This place isn't perfect but it's Texas and that's enough for many native and naturalized citizens (my wife will even defend grits though she cannot stand them). Except for The Pretenders I don't hear anyone crowing about Ohio, ha ha. We're prideful but with some basis/right to be even when it just confirms the stereotype because if you're gonna be an a-hole you may as well be the biggest and best. Our speed patrols have come to resemble a fascist parody of fundraising. Our cities are not as nice as they once were.

I'll poke fun of Yanks and refuse to move to Iowa because of the snow but I also realize we're all pretty much stuck together even as the family is dysfunctional. I'll still let you drink my beer and eat my food as long as you don't kiss my wife or kick my dogs.

Oh, I believe it's five states but what would you call them? We do have very distinct regions settled by various groups. You can be sure each one would want the original name because The Knavery of Dallas and Norteno Houston are too true and not as cool.
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby koimaster » March 13th 2013, 6:13pm

Give it back to the Mexicans. Then they can kill each other off. Free the US and give texico back.
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Re: A Forgotten Bit of History

Postby koimaster » September 13th 2018, 3:51pm

:D
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With the lilt of Irish laughter

Every day and in every way

Now forever and ever after."
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