Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

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Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby koimaster » January 13th 2017, 11:58am

As some of you know a couple of members of the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry are members here including the head of their legal department. Over the years there has been an on going battle with the fake swiss watch industry which has recently led to the Federation calling out Invicta Watch Group and their "Swiss made in Asia for America" watches in the official report from 2015.


Image



We all know that Lior, former CEO of Swiss Watch International sued the Federation over the trademarks, Swiss and Swiss Made. He lost and appealed and lost again. Yet I still see the bullshit misleading labels being used as listed by Yves below in red. I am asking that if you see a watch with these designations currently being sold that it be listed in this thread and photos of them also be posted. You seldom if ever see this kind of garbage with legit companies. It is time to hold them accountable so the folks who purchase watches know what they are getting,


Dear Alain,

Many thanks for your message.

You are perfectly right, the FH is holder of two certification trademarks
in the US (SWISS and SWISS MADE for watches). The regulations of the two
marks are identical to the definitions of Swiss law, that is to say the
Ordinance of the Federal Council regarding the use of the name Swiss for
watches. FH wants to guarantee an identical level of protection of the
term "Swiss" in the United States and protect the US consumer from abusive
uses.

The indication "Swiss movement" is allowed under Swiss legislation and may
be applied to watches that contain a Swiss movement. The word "movement"
must appear written out in full in the same typeface, dimension and color
as the denomination "Swiss". Other terms, as for example "Swiss Movt",
"Swiss Quartz", "Swiss Design", "Swiss Brand", "Swiss Parts", "Swiss Parts
Movement", "Swiss Tech"... are not allowed. By the way, the Federation has
acted and is conducting ongoing actions against several U.S. based
companies which are misusing its certification marks, notably in
collaboration with U.S. Customs.

Please let us know if any American watch brands abusively use such Swiss
geographical indications on their products.


As you certainly know, the "Swiss Made"-Ordinance was revised on January
1, 2017. Please find hereunder for your reference the main legal
requirements to fulfill in order to lawfully use Swiss geographical
indications on watches, as stated in the Swiss federal Ordinance governing
the use of Swiss indications on watches:

Articles 1a and 2 of the OSM state that a watch may be considered as Swiss
if, and only if, it fulfils cumulatively the following minimum criteria
(starting from 01.01.2017):

1. its movement is Swiss, meaning that the movement
a. has been assembled in Switzerland, and;
b. has been inspected by the manufacturer in Switzerland,
and;
c. the components of Swiss manufacture make up for at least
50 percent of the value, without considering the cost for assembly, and;
d. at least 60% of the manufacturing costs must be generated
in Switzerland
2. its movement is cased up in Switzerland (assembly of the watch in
Switzerland) and
3. the manufacturer carries out the final inspection in Switzerland
(quality control, water-resistance,... )
4. at least 60% of the manufacturing costs of the watch is generated in
Switzerland (watch wristband excluded)

Please take note that starting from 01.01.2019 the technical development
(mechanical construction and prototyping) of the watch and of its movement
will have to take place in Switzerland too.

According to Article 3 of the OSM, Conditions of using the name "Swiss"
and the Swiss cross :

- The following may be used only for Swiss watches and Swiss movements: a.
the word “Swiss”; b. indications such as “Swiss”, “Swiss product”, “made
in Switzerland”, “Swiss quality”, other designations containing the word
“Swiss” or indications that are liable to be confused with that word and
c. the Swiss cross or signs which may be confused with it.

- If the watch is not Swiss, the designations figuring in para. 1 may
still be placed on Swiss movements, provided that they cannot be seen by
the watch purchaser.

- The indication "Swiss movement" may be placed on watches which contain a
Swiss movement. The word “movement” must be written in full using letters
that are identical in type face, size and colour to those used for the
designation “Swiss”.

- Paras. 1 and 3 apply even when these designations are used in
translation (in particular "Swiss", "Swiss Made", "Swiss Movement"),
either with the indication of the genuine origin of the watch or with the
addition of words such as “nature”, “type”, “style” or other combinations
of words.

- Apart from the placing of these indications on the watches or on their
packaging, use comprises:
a. the sale, putting up for sale or bringing into circulation of watches
with an indication of this kind;
b. the placing on signs, advertisements, prospectuses, invoices, letters
or commercial papers.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby TemerityB » January 13th 2017, 1:36pm

Koi, you just know i'll be in on this, and will be happy to provide photos and facts if I see offending products. Cripes, as someone who has personally been a fly in the ointment for these clowns, it'll be more fun than a barrel of Mongos.

I think this thread should be made a sticky right away, so we can call it up easily to post such offending items.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby BigCheez » January 13th 2017, 2:43pm

I can't get Photobucket working on my phone, but here's a link to a SWISS MOVT watch I've never heard of:
http://www.itshot.com/mens-luxurman-dia ... wAodwiMOFA
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby biglove » January 13th 2017, 4:07pm

BigCheez wrote:I can't get Photobucket working on my phone, but here's a link to a SWISS MOVT watch I've never heard of:
http://www.itshot.com/mens-luxurman-dia ... wAodwiMOFA


That is about as Swiss as my left nut. FFS, that is just a mess.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby Hawk » January 15th 2017, 2:24pm

Their legal standing is most clear on "Swiss" and "Swiss Made".

Those offenses seem to have, at least sporadically, dried up. John House's representative has been conspicuously absent and the last guy that posted an invicter picture that was new clearly showed "Swiss Movement" (not abbreviated, as it should be).

Things are cyclical. I truly hope they don't grow complacent when Swiss watch sales pick up again.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby TemerityB » January 15th 2017, 4:30pm

Good heavens, this is like shooting fish in a barrel. Spotting during a channel flip following today's Knicks game on Evine:

Invicta watch being sold with the now-illegal "Swiss Movt" on its dial; description is "Invicta Reserve 52mm Venom Sea Dragon Gen II Swiss Quartz Chronograph Silicone Strap Watch":

Image

Evine stock number: 636-016
Watches Models by Invicta:
Model Number Black/Black: 20403
Model Number Black/Silver-tone: 20404
Model Number Gold-tone/Black: 20405
Model Number Gold-tone/Silver-tone: 20406
UPC Black/Black: 886678252213
UPC Black/Silver-tone: 886678252220
UPC Gold-tone/Black: 886678252237
UPC Gold-tone/Silver-tone: 886678252244

Being sold on the Evine home shopping network as of 1/15/17; product description on the evine.com website lists the hilarious line:
"Watch Country of Origin: Final assembly changed to China, effective 8-9-2016"

Go get 'em, boys. :wink:
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby Hawk » January 15th 2017, 4:55pm

It doesn't have anything to do with country of origin but I'd love to know how much one of those Roxer high pressure testers was.

'cause I'd bet we could go to town on that 1,000 meter hokey-doke as well. The only reason they're getting away with it is the dearth of testers that can duplicate that depth.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby biglove » January 15th 2017, 5:49pm

Hawk wrote:It doesn't have anything to do with country of origin but I'd love to know how much one of those Roxer high pressure testers was.

'cause I'd bet we could go to town on that 1,000 meter hokey-doke as well. The only reason they're getting away with it is the dearth of testers that can duplicate that depth.



Searched around. Supposedly the "off the shelf" units are around $7K but only test to 20Bar. Custom stuff has got to be upwards of $250K, from what estimates I could find.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby biglove » January 21st 2017, 6:47pm

Invicta still up to their antics...

http://www.evine.com/Product/642-579

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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby Hawk » January 22nd 2017, 3:18am

Several months ago it would have said "Swiss Made".

While the FH prefers "movement" rather than an abbreviation I'd wager it's not a big deal to them. At least where the word "Made" was dremelled off leaving space for only 4 or 5 characters.

I could be wrong but I thought their issue with abbreviations was related to the way Renato once abused it, i.e.:

Swiss movt hand Made.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby TemerityB » January 22nd 2017, 8:31am

Hawk wrote:Several months ago it would have said "Swiss Made".



That's it in a nutshell - and it led to lines like this on the Evine sales pages for Invicta:

"Watch Country of Origin: Final assembly changed to China, effective 8-9-2016"

I'm just going by what's on koi's original post above - the FH now states "Swiss Movt' is not allowed. And if calling it out causes even the slightest bit of trouble or angst for that odious company, it's worth my time to do it. Fuck 'em.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby conjurer » January 22nd 2017, 10:00am

TemerityB wrote:
Hawk wrote:Several months ago it would have said "Swiss Made".



That's it in a nutshell - and it led to lines like this on the Evine sales pages for Invicta:

"Watch Country of Origin: Final assembly changed to China, effective 8-9-2016"

I'm just going by what's on koi's original post above - the FH now states "Swiss Movt' is not allowed. And if calling it out causes even the slightest bit of trouble or angst for that odious company, it's worth my time to do it. Fuck 'em.


Quite so. In the few minutes I've endured of Nvicter Ryan and Co., the whole "It's made in Switzerland!!" lie has been dialled way back. One can only assume that some lawyers contacted Eyal, possibly during one of his knob-jobs by a Pony-Farm crack whore on the poop deck of the Super Happy Fun Boat.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby koimaster » January 30th 2017, 9:14am



Object : Swiss Movt

Good day Yves,

As per your recent email here a just a few Invicta watches being sold that
fit your description as to what is not legal. These are on Evine Live, the
shopping network where Invicta does most of their sales. The list is much
longer but this should be a start. Swiss watch international has many
watches with the same labels on the dial.



Evine stock number: 636-016
Watches Models by Invicta:
Model Number Black/Black: 20403
Model Number Black/Silver-tone: 20404
Model Number Gold-tone/Black: 20405
Model Number Gold-tone/Silver-tone: 20406 UPC Black/Black: 886678252213 UPC
Black/Silver-tone: 886678252220 UPC Gold-tone/Black: 886678252237 UPC
Gold-tone/Silver-tone: 886678252244








Dear ******,

Many thanks for your message!

We will have a look at this.

Kind regards
Yves

Yves Bugmann
Head of Legal Division


Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry FH
2501 Biel/Bienne
Switzerland
Tel +41 (0)32 328 08 28
http://www.fhs.swiss



Also included with the original message to Yves were the photos of watches in the topic.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby TemerityB » January 30th 2017, 6:01pm

I just discovered this brand, Alexander, that's issued by the same company that sells Stuhrling Original and Akribos. This brand is all marked "Swiss made," but I have my doubts. Photos, etc, are shown in the link below.


Image

Image

http://www.alexanderwatch.com/

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=36562&p=376621#p376621
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby koimaster » February 28th 2017, 4:35pm

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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby Hawk » March 1st 2017, 6:47am

Things that make you go "hmmmmmm".

La Chaux-de-Fonds is a smooth 50 km from the Glycine facility.

If true this will expand Invicta's Swiss offerings to three:

"Swiss" = Chinese
"Swiss Made" = Chinese with Swiss movement.
"We're really not joking - Swiss Made"

Image


I picture such a thing making compliance checking burdensome.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby koimaster » March 1st 2017, 9:55am

The term La Chaux de Fonds is them just re-writing history again. It refers to the old pocket watches.


http://www.uhren-muser.de/en/42412

http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/l ... 0c7dfbd588


http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/i ... 1df4dfea56



And the new and improved history of invicta. Fake watch company, fake history.


During the 1970s, Invicta faced stiff competition from the rise of quartz watches. Although Invicta watches were priced reasonably for buyers in search of a top-quality product, quartz watches were something new, and far cheaper by comparison. Reportedly there was a point when Invicta came close to ceasing production. But With the invincibility that was the company's trademark philosophy, Invicta found a way to turn its fortunes around by creating watches made with rare materials as well as its customary high standard of craftsmanship. One example is the Limited Edition Subaqua NOMA, which features a meteorite stone dial. The Invicta brand acquired a following among collectors too. For men there is the Invicta Signature Limited Edition Pave Diamond Pro Diver, and for women, the Invicta Women's II Collection Limited Edition Diamond Two-Tone Watch, among others.



http://i-watch-collector.blogspot.com/p ... group.html

And another re-invention by the fucked one.

President and CEO Eyal Lalo
Eyal Lalo, President and CEO of The Invicta Watch Group, comes by his passion for watches and horology honestly. Born in Central America and raised in the United States, Eyal carries with him three generations of strong watch-making tradition. Having spent much of his childhood beside his father and grandfather at the family’s manufacturing and distribution centers, Eyal grew up learning and experiencing the watch-making business from every angle
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby Hawk » March 1st 2017, 10:31am

Since you're already corresponding with the FH can you apprise them of this?

I would almost give it some modicum of credibility for no better reason than that I'm assuming they're under some degree of scrutiny but it certainly wouldn't be the first time they were caught screwing in the daylight. That and I'm guessing there's excess capacity in Switzerland right now - WoW going Tango Uniform probably left something of a vacuum at STP.

But just because the timing is right for Invicta to import an actual Swiss watch it probably runs cross-grain to Eyal's business model.

My big question is why the hell would they do it? After the intertubz explosion of them getting busted for falsely claiming "Swiss Made", who in the fuck would believe them now? Another concern is that they could get some slapped together by STP then follow that batch with a shipload of a similar product from Hong Kong.

But the FH does have ten days before the flow starts.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby koimaster » March 1st 2017, 10:34am

Hawk wrote:Since you're already corresponding with the FH can you apprise them of this?

I would almost give it some modicum of credibility for no better reason than that I'm assuming they're under some degree of scrutiny but it certainly wouldn't be the first time they were caught screwing in the daylight. That and I'm guessing there's excess capacity in Switzerland right now - WoW going Tango Uniform probably left something of a vacuum at STP.

But just because the timing is right for Invicta to import an actual Swiss watch it probably runs cross-grain to Eyal's business model.

My big question is why the hell would they do it? After the intertubz explosion of them getting busted for falsely claiming "Swiss Made", who in the fuck would believe them now? Another concern is that they could get some slapped together by STP then follow that batch with a shipload of a similar product from Hong Kong.

But the FH does have ten days before the flow starts.


I sent the photo to Yves yesterday. I suspect they are already following Inflicta and now others. I sent them a list the other day of companies using the word Swiss which were not Swiss.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby Hawk » March 1st 2017, 10:37am

koimaster wrote:I sent the photo to Yves yesterday. I suspect they are already following Inflicta and now others. I sent them a list the other day of companies using the word Swiss which were not Swiss.


Thanks. The troubling thing about this one is that they're doubling down - seemingly acknowledging that they had non-Swiss watches mis-marked but this one is going all in. Hell, they even (claim to have) used sapphire crystals.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby koimaster » March 1st 2017, 11:29am

Hawk wrote:
koimaster wrote:I sent the photo to Yves yesterday. I suspect they are already following Inflicta and now others. I sent them a list the other day of companies using the word Swiss which were not Swiss.


Thanks. The troubling thing about this one is that they're doubling down - seemingly acknowledging that they had non-Swiss watches mis-marked but this one is going all in. Hell, they even (claim to have) used sapphire crystals.


You know as well as I do after all of these years that lalo will trip up on his own lies. More and more people at forums are ignoring that company. Only the diehards and those ignorant of the brand continue to buy from them.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby Hawk » March 1st 2017, 12:39pm

Yeah, but he grows rich in the time before he trips over his own dick.

They were busted with the all-Asian "Swiss" marked watches in 2010 and I can't find a reason to think it wasn't going on since 1991. Then he goes from 2010 to 2016 on Chinese "Swiss Made" watches with Swiss movements despite the FH's report being dated 2015. The "new and improved Swiss Made" goes from March 11 of 2017 until...?

If they are based on distressed pricing from STP's WoW vacuum the FH's job would presumably be complicated. I don't have a good feeling about this. Neither am I comfortable with only the die-hards hanging on - Evine manufacturers new converts more or less continually.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby TemerityB » March 1st 2017, 5:54pm

Hawk wrote:Yeah, but he grows rich in the time before he trips over his own dick.

They were busted with the all-Asian "Swiss" marked watches in 2010 and I can't find a reason to think it wasn't going on since 1991. Then he goes from 2010 to 2016 on Chinese "Swiss Made" watches with Swiss movements despite the FH's report being dated 2015. The "new and improved Swiss Made" goes from March 11 of 2017 until...?

If they are based on distressed pricing from STP's WoW vacuum the FH's job would presumably be complicated. I don't have a good feeling about this. Neither am I comfortable with only the die-hards hanging on - Evine manufacturers new converts more or less continually.


Hawk, your heart - and sensibilities - are definitely in the right place. Your eyes are always open to the scams.

And you're right. Lalo has skated for far, far too long, not only with the whole faux Swiss thing, but only about 1,000 other transgressions - like, you know, utterly not fixing the crap he pimps. Being "successful" should not give the company license to play fast and loose with the facts about what they sell, regardless of what a half-dozen WIT humanoids have to say about it - how many thousands of people have purchased "Swiss made" watches that are anything but?

Beyond disgusting. There are decent, low cost actual Swiss brands that can't get arrested, yet Lawler and company put out Chinese watches that only end up souring buyers about the hobby in general?

The damage that fucking company has done is revolting.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby eddiea » March 1st 2017, 6:12pm

koimaster wrote:You know as well as I do after all of these years that lalo will trip up on his own lies. More and more people at forums are ignoring that company. Only the diehards and those ignorant of the brand continue to buy from them.

There is no such thing as a diehard Invicta fan per se, just those who still refused to concede they were taking for a ride and spent small fortunes on shit.....
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby TemerityB » April 24th 2017, 6:27pm

According to the FH notice at the beginning of this thread, "Swiss Parts" is not allowed; the hype page on Evine states this watch is made in China. Looks like Demple and company didn't get the memo. This is actually a new piece that's being sold on Evine this week.

Image

http://www.evine.com/Product/645-539

Good heavens. Croton's new stuff looks like it should be sold in plastic eggs in a vending machine. Pretty sure there's a few more "Swiss" examples currently for sale on that site as well.
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