Not For Me, JLC

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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby Kahuna74 » June 4th 2015, 1:13pm

Hawk wrote:
Kahuna74 wrote:I don't have all the answers Hawk and never claim I do. The more we play with mother nature, the more we seem to fuck-up,,


I agree in general. However, banning DDT in a country with no malaria is an easier decision than banning it in a country where death by malaria was all to common.

Similarly with GMOs I suppose I'd have no objections to the first world getting all breathless about it because it had little impact other than increasing agricultural profits and creating controversy. However it arguably saved lives in India and China - and a lot of them.

DDT was an effective counter to mosquito-born disease and GMOs help against starvation.

If you've got no malaria and your country's biggest health problem is obesity then banning DDT and GMOs wouldn't have much of a negative impact. This is not the case universally however.

There are some who would say, and rightfully so, that there still seems like there are a lot of people starving, and in the same countries you mentioned.
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby Hawk » June 5th 2015, 9:16am

Kahuna74 wrote:There are some who would say, and rightfully so, that there still seems like there are a lot of people starving, and in the same countries you mentioned.

They could say it but they'd be missing the point. If GMOs have played a role in reducing the numbers of malnourished by, say, 80% you don't ban them because you've got 20% of the problem remaining.

At least not without assuring you'll at least maintain the status quo. Willfully rolling back progress would be a non-starter. If your house is 80% constructed you don't throw all your power tools in the ditch because it isn't complete.

There's much more that needs done but one doesn't abandon what progress has been made.

http://www.copenhagenconsensus.com/post ... rgets-2030
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby Kahuna74 » June 5th 2015, 10:05am

Hawk wrote:
Kahuna74 wrote:There are some who would say, and rightfully so, that there still seems like there are a lot of people starving, and in the same countries you mentioned.

They could say it but they'd be missing the point. If GMOs have played a role in reducing the numbers of malnourished by, say, 80% you don't ban them because you've got 20% of the problem remaining.

At least not without assuring you'll at least maintain the status quo. Willfully rolling back progress would be a non-starter. If your house is 80% constructed you don't throw all your power tools in the ditch because it isn't complete.

There's much more that needs done but one doesn't abandon what progress has been made.

http://www.copenhagenconsensus.com/post ... rgets-2030

Sorry hawk I put very little stock in anything that's on a .com web site. It is being founded by someone, who has an agenda. That 80% seems very high in my open. I just ask one of my Professors here on campus and they said the same thing, 80% is an inflated number at best.
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby Hawk » June 5th 2015, 10:24am

Kahuna74 wrote:Sorry hawk I put very little stock in anything that's on a .com web site. It is being founded by someone, who has an agenda. That 80% seems very high my open. I just ask one of my Professors here on campus and they said the same thing. 80% is an inflated number at best.

It very well might be inflated - I did after all pull if from 'twxt my cheeks (the "say" in my sentence is a dead giveaway). I don't think anybody's been able to pin down an actual number but I'd suspect that's largely beside the point. I mean, what would we do: start a dialog on how small the number of people that didn't starve would have to be before we'd feel good about rolling back the progress?

Personally, I could live with a very small number but that's mostly because I see the cost / benefit ratio working in favor of GMOs. If we saved several tens of thousands that'd be good enough for me. Several hundreds of thousands a slam dunk and several million a no-brainer. Paul Ehrlich said several billion would die but they didn't - I guess he has the award for hyperbolic prediction but a lot of people of my generation believed him.

Same with malaria - I recall one health worker noted that if you loaded a 747 with children and it flew into the side of a mountain, do you think the media would be all over it? Would people be screaming that something be done? "Well," he said "how about that happens seven times a day, every day, all year, now can you see the media response?" I checked his math and with an estimate of 500,000 deaths, most under the age of 5 with most in sub-Saharan Africa it was close enough.

But what if it was only one 747 full of children per day? It would still justify deploying DDT if it helped. They're now managing to make progress without DDT but that's perhaps more to do with Bill Gates than any government.

People trump birds. Old fashioned notion I know but I'm comfortable with it.

As to the Copenhagen Consensus being a "dot-com" - try it, you might be surprised. Invest 30 minutes of your life. I spent that much reading citations here that led directly to Salon hit pieces. A little reciprocity never hurt anyone.
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby jason_recliner » June 5th 2015, 10:37am

Hawk wrote:People trump birds


FFS.

There are seven billion people, we're not at risk of extinction. How many people do you want hanging around before you start prioritising the health of the planet?

I tried to stay away, I really did!
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby Kahuna74 » June 5th 2015, 10:48am

jason_recliner wrote:
Hawk wrote:
Kahuna74 wrote:People trump birds


FFS.

There are seven billion people, we're not at risk of extinction. How many people do you want hanging around before you start prioritising the health of the planet?

I tried to stay away, I really did!

I never said people trump birds. And poisoning the world to save people today makes very little sense to me, what about tomorrow. We don't know enough about the effects of GMO's on Humanes. Lets wait two or three generations and see what happens, right. Still one company taking charge of feeding all these people with their GMO foods. Crzy at best.
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby Kahuna74 » June 5th 2015, 10:51am

Its okay, when there is nothing left but people we can turn to cannibalism.
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby jason_recliner » June 5th 2015, 10:55am

Kahuna74 wrote:
jason_recliner wrote:
Hawk wrote:
Kahuna74 wrote:People trump birds


FFS.

There are seven billion people, we're not at risk of extinction. How many people do you want hanging around before you start prioritising the health of the planet?

I tried to stay away, I really did!

I never said people trump birds. And poisoning the world to save people today makes very little sense to me, what about tomorrow. We don't know enough about the effects of GMO's on Humanes. Lets wait two or three generations and see what happens, right. Still one company taking charge of feeding all these people with their GMO foods. Crzy at best.


I misquoted you, buddy!
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby Kahuna74 » June 5th 2015, 10:57am

jason_recliner wrote:
Kahuna74 wrote:
jason_recliner wrote:
Hawk wrote:
Kahuna74 wrote:People trump birds


FFS.

There are seven billion people, we're not at risk of extinction. How many people do you want hanging around before you start prioritising the health of the planet?

I tried to stay away, I really did!

I never said people trump birds. And poisoning the world to save people today makes very little sense to me, what about tomorrow. We don't know enough about the effects of GMO's on Humanes. Lets wait two or three generations and see what happens, right. Still one company taking charge of feeding all these people with their GMO foods. Crzy at best.

Yea, I saw that after I made the post. My bad.
I misquoted you, buddy!
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby conjurer » June 5th 2015, 10:58am

It's probably about time that people in the developing world stop fucking so much.
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby Falstaff » June 5th 2015, 11:22am

conjurer wrote:It's probably about time that people in the developing world stop fucking so much.



That's the positive aspect of GMOs - as they feed the hungry 3rd world masses, they sterilize as well. Oops, I said too much - you'll have to excuse me, some hit men from Monsanto are at the door.
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby conjurer » June 5th 2015, 11:26am

Falstaff wrote:
conjurer wrote:It's probably about time that people in the developing world stop fucking so much.



That's the positive aspect of GMOs - as they feed the hungry 3rd world masses, they sterilize as well.



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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby Tzimisces » June 5th 2015, 11:37am

It's comforting to know that we can sacrifice someone else's children for the health of the planet.
As long as it's not mine.
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby Kahuna74 » June 5th 2015, 11:52am

Tzimisces wrote:It's comforting to know that we can sacrifice someone else's children for the health of the planet.
As long as it's not mine.

Just one question. Where are your children going to live when we are done killing the planet? Like I said, its okay, our childrens-childrens-children can just eat each other when everything else is dead. But don't worry. The one percent's children will be fine, locked away safe watching the rest of whats left of mankind fighting for what they can find on our dead planet. Chemicals and GMO's are not mankind's saviors. Look at what over fishing is doing to our Oceans. Maybe if we stopped killing of all insects, and birds, we wouldn't have so many fucking mosquitoes.
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby biglove » June 5th 2015, 11:56am

conjurer wrote:It's probably about time that people in the developing world stop fucking so much.


Peoples is gonna' have a fuck. Can't fix that. But the Catholic Church can stop telling all the heathen folk that they are going to hell if you use birth control!
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby Kahuna74 » June 5th 2015, 12:18pm

biglove wrote:
conjurer wrote:It's probably about time that people in the developing world stop fucking so much.


Peoples is gonna' have a fuck. Can't fix that. But the Catholic Church can stop telling all the heathen folk that they are going to hell if you use birth control!

yup, totally agree.
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby Falstaff » June 5th 2015, 3:27pm

biglove wrote:
conjurer wrote:It's probably about time that people in the developing world stop fucking so much.


Peoples is gonna' have a fuck.



Best entertainment there is - and it's free! Thus the appeal to poverty-ridden third world folk.
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby biglove » June 5th 2015, 4:03pm

Falstaff wrote:
biglove wrote:
conjurer wrote:It's probably about time that people in the developing world stop fucking so much.


Peoples is gonna' have a fuck.



Best entertainment there is - and it's free! Thus the appeal to poverty-ridden third world folk.


I call bullshit!

One pays for sex, one way or another...always...

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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby Tzimisces » June 5th 2015, 4:05pm

Kahuna74 wrote:
Tzimisces wrote:It's comforting to know that we can sacrifice someone else's children for the health of the planet.
As long as it's not mine.

Just one question. Where are your children going to live when we are done killing the planet? Like I said, its okay, our childrens-childrens-children can just eat each other when everything else is dead. But don't worry. The one percent's children will be fine, locked away safe watching the rest of whats left of mankind fighting for what they can find on our dead planet. Chemicals and GMO's are not mankind's saviors. Look at what over fishing is doing to our Oceans. Maybe if we stopped killing of all insects, and birds, we wouldn't have so many fucking mosquitoes.

We have poison for the mosquitoes. :mrgreen:

I was just making the point that few would view the death of their own child as an environmental bonus. I suppose we could use forced sterilization. Who's first? Ourselves, Africans, Chinese, Indians...maybe a Ringworld birthright lottery.

I think Mother Nature will take care of it the old fashioned way; by pandemic. That has the advantage of generally hitting the biggest offenders the worst, is fairly random, and is perfectly natural.
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby Kahuna74 » June 6th 2015, 6:47am

Tzimisces wrote:
Kahuna74 wrote:
Tzimisces wrote:It's comforting to know that we can sacrifice someone else's children for the health of the planet.
As long as it's not mine.

Just one question. Where are your children going to live when we are done killing the planet? Like I said, its okay, our childrens-childrens-children can just eat each other when everything else is dead. But don't worry. The one percent's children will be fine, locked away safe watching the rest of whats left of mankind fighting for what they can find on our dead planet. Chemicals and GMO's are not mankind's saviors. Look at what over fishing is doing to our Oceans. Maybe if we stopped killing of all insects, and birds, we wouldn't have so many fucking mosquitoes.

We have poison for the mosquitoes. :mrgreen:

I was just making the point that few would view the death of their own child as an environmental bonus. I suppose we could use forced sterilization. Who's first? Ourselves, Africans, Chinese, Indians...maybe a Ringworld birthright lott

I think Mother Nature will take care of it the old fashioned way; by pandemic. That has the advantage of generally hitting the biggest offenders the worst, is fairly random, and is perfectly natural.


I agree.
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby Hawk » June 6th 2015, 12:27pm

jason_recliner wrote:
Hawk wrote:People trump birds


FFS.

There are seven billion people, we're not at risk of extinction. How many people do you want hanging around before you start prioritising the health of the planet?

I tried to stay away, I really did!

A refreshingly unique perspective and one that I've held on and off.

The same principle has been applied with varying degrees of success to AGW - the folks that paid extra for beach property can simply reinvest elsewhere and the poor fucks that are most heavily impacted can do us all a favor and just die already.

I probably wouldn't mind inadvertent sterilization especially if it started glowing in the dark though our young shavers might object more strenuously.

Fact is, the earth will do fine with or without us. It's done so before and will do so again. Addressing AGW is the very definition of putting people ahead of the health of the planet. The planet doesn't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut if it's mostly white, green or a nice uniform sulfur yellowish-brown. To say otherwise is simply projecting a human-centric or perhaps carbon-based lifeform view of "health" onto a largish object that couldn't care less what infests its surface.
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby tiktok » June 6th 2015, 4:08pm

"An economic system centered on the god of money needs to plunder nature to sustain the frenetic rhythm of consumption that is inherent to it.
The system continues unchanged, since what dominates are the dynamics of an economy and a finance that are lacking in ethics. It is no longer man who commands, but money. Cash commands.
The monopolising of lands, deforestation, the appropriation of water, inadequate agro-toxics are some of the evils that tear man from the land of his birth. Climate change, the loss of biodiversity and deforestation are already showing their devastating effects in the great cataclysms we witness."
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby conjurer » June 6th 2015, 4:40pm

tiktok wrote:"An economic system centered on the god of money needs to plunder nature to sustain the frenetic rhythm of consumption that is inherent to it.
The system continues unchanged, since what dominates are the dynamics of an economy and a finance that are lacking in ethics. It is no longer man who commands, but money. Cash commands.
The monopolising of lands, deforestation, the appropriation of water, inadequate agro-toxics are some of the evils that tear man from the land of his birth. Climate change, the loss of biodiversity and deforestation are already showing their devastating effects in the great cataclysms we witness."


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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby tiktok » June 6th 2015, 6:37pm

conjurer wrote:
--Carrot Top, addressing the UN General Assembly, 19 May, 2012.


You got the comedy part right, different shtick:
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Re: Not For Me, JLC

Postby jason_recliner » June 6th 2015, 9:12pm

Hawk wrote:
jason_recliner wrote:
Hawk wrote:People trump birds


FFS.

There are seven billion people, we're not at risk of extinction. How many people do you want hanging around before you start prioritising the health of the planet?

I tried to stay away, I really did!

A refreshingly unique perspective and one that I've held on and off.

The same principle has been applied with varying degrees of success to AGW - the folks that paid extra for beach property can simply reinvest elsewhere and the poor fucks that are most heavily impacted can do us all a favor and just die already.

I probably wouldn't mind inadvertent sterilization especially if it started glowing in the dark though our young shavers might object more strenuously.

Fact is, the earth will do fine with or without us. It's done so before and will do so again. Addressing AGW is the very definition of putting people ahead of the health of the planet. The planet doesn't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut if it's mostly white, green or a nice uniform sulfur yellowish-brown. To say otherwise is simply projecting a human-centric or perhaps carbon-based lifeform view of "health" onto a largish object that couldn't care less what infests its surface.


In addition to impacts on us, AGW is highly likely to impact other species currently adapted to life in marginal climatic environments. Some Australian scientists say that they're is already evidence of this with animals here such as birds, and Alpine species, but with our highly variable climate it's hard to know for sure.
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