Swissese documents

All things related to "SWISS" Invicta watches and Chinese movements

Swissese documents

Postby koimaster » June 1st 2010, 7:08am

New Movement Invictas Marked Swiss When in Fact Chinese










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Re: Swissese documents

Postby boscoe » June 1st 2010, 7:24am

Yes this is bogus if made in China.
But the dial was misprinted and damaged during shipping. The word Swiss actually shipped as Swish
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby Ditchdoc » June 1st 2010, 9:00am

Quit baiting me Koi. you know I can't lay off these kind of threads.



Those guys work very hard to skirt the laws and deceive consumers.
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby LIES ALL LIES!!! » June 1st 2010, 5:36pm

HAHA! I love this train wreck, pass the popcorn.
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby koimaster » June 1st 2010, 5:39pm

well since I am the one posting this and I was very surprised to see it go as long as it has, my two cents worth.

Skelton has made comments to those complaining in the past before. It is either the person posting a falsehood or any one but Eyals fault. He even went so far in a thread to pooh pooh a WG member who mentioned going to the State Attorney.




At least your former Admin Brad was honest in his posts.


Originally Posted by DIAMANTE
My theory is that these models have the Asian version of the Ronda 5040d and therefore cannot be labled Swiss Made.

Sorry, that wouldn't be allowed under U.S. Customs country of origin labeling regulations. If you read the following excerpts from the regs. you will note that the country of origin of the movement must should appear on the dial or case back. A company subject to U.S. Customs regs, could not put Swiss on the dial when in fact the movement was made in Asia.

U.S. Customs Regulations, 19 CFR Part 177

Chapter 91, Additional U.S. Note 4, Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States, sets forth special marking requirements for watches and clocks:

(a) Watch movements shall be marked on one or more of the bridges or top plates to show:
(i) the name of the country of manufacture,
(ii) the name of the manufacturer or purchaser, and
(iii) in words, the number of jewels, if any, serving a mechanical purpose as frictional bearings.
(c) Watch cases shall be marked on the inside or outside of the back to show:
(i) the name of the country of manufacture, and
(ii) the name of the manufacturer or purchaser.
The above movements and cases must be conspicuously and indelibly marked by cutting, die-sinking, engraving, stamping (including by means of indelible ink), or mold-marking. Movements with opto-electronic display only and cases designed for use therewith, whether entered as separate articles or as components of assembled watches or clocks, are excepted from these special marking requirements.

Watches and clocks are also subject to the normal country of origin marking requirements of 19 U.S.C. 1304, and under these requirements, the movement’s country of origin should appear conspicuously and legibly on the dial face or on the outside of the back. In addition, watchbands should be marked with the country of manufacture of the band, unless the watchband is attached in the country where the watch was produced.



Sorry Sam, Swiss and Swiss Made as used in the U.S. do not mean the same thing.

In the U.S., Swiss Made is controlled through the Swiss Federation's USPTO registered trademark, and Federation member or not, their rules must be followed under their trademark rights.

Swiss at the 6 position when used by a non-federation member in the U.S. does not necessarily mean the same as Swiss Made. It's entirely up to the non-member company's policy, so long as it complies with U.S. Customs regulations that require the movement used in the watch to be from the country of origin placed on the dial. So at a minimum, you know that a watch so labeled has a Swiss movement.
__________________

So I obtained today one of these watches and it was delivered intact to the Oregon AG along with the thread I have a copy of. We will see what happens from there.

Well Jimbo, I have also sent a copy of that thread to the FTC as well as the Florida AG. If you want to sell chinese watches, hey go for it. Nothing wrong with them.





Invicta Men's Russian Diver Swiss Quartz GMT Distressed Leather Strap Watch
Choices: Black or Blue dial

Set a course for style with the Invicta Russian Diver! The 18K rose-gold plated stainless steel case stands out with a special screw-down canteen-style crown protector and chain. The highly polished case sports a coin-edged bezel to really set it apart from the pack.

The breathtaking dial comes in blue sunray or grain-textured black matte. The dial has been uniquely perforated to reveal the inner workings of this timepiece's Swiss ISA 8176 Quartz GMT movement. Tritnite luminous Arabic numerals have been trimmed in rose-tone at every hour position except 2:00. Surrounding the outer dial is a 24-hour GMT scale. GMT stands for Greenwich Mean Time and is the average time that Earth takes to rotate from noon to noon. Finally, you'll never forget what day it is again with a date window atop 6:00.

The genuine leather strap comes in brown with the blue choice and black with the black style choice. It has been distressed to give it a rugged and weathered look. You'll attach this handsome strap to your wrist with a rose-tone clasp. Explore the ocean of style captured in the Invicta Russian Diver!


•Strap: Genuine leather
•Movement: Swiss ISA 8176 Quartz GMT•Crystal: Mineral
•Crown: Push/pull
•Clasp: Buckle
•Strap Measurements: 10" L x 26mm W
•Case Measurements: 52mm
•Water Resistance: 10 ATM - 100 meters - 330 feet
•Model Numbers:


http://www.shopnbc.com/PRODUCT/?track=-20301;&familyid=j177373&cm_re=Search-_-family-_-N
Last edited by Anonymous on June 1st 2010, 5:48pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby LIES ALL LIES!!! » June 1st 2010, 5:46pm

Yep, nothing wrong with Chinese watches at all. But there is a big problem with selling Chinese watches as Swiss Made. Bravo Koi!
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby LIES ALL LIES!!! » June 1st 2010, 5:50pm

Oh noes. Yet another cracked open his caseback on his "Swiss" Grand Lupah, silver Chinese Rhonda 5040.D movement too.

The house of cards is quickly collapsing.
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby koimaster » June 1st 2010, 5:53pm

LIES ALL LIES!!! wrote:Yep, nothing wrong with Chinese watches at all. But there is a big problem with selling Chinese watches as Swiss Made. Bravo Koi!




I was speaking with an AD for Longines this afternoon in Portland and the topic of Chinese watches came up. The quality of chinese watches is very good. Far better then 5 years ago. For years they have made parts for Swiss companies including ETA. They are in the same position the Japanses were 40 years ago. We know how that story went.

I do not wish Invicta ill will as I own several. I just think they need to step up the QC and CS and stop the carnival barker sales pitch.
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby Ditchdoc » June 1st 2010, 5:58pm

koimaster wrote:
LIES ALL LIES!!! wrote:Yep, nothing wrong with Chinese watches at all. But there is a big problem with selling Chinese watches as Swiss Made. Bravo Koi!




I was speaking with an AD for Longines this afternoon in Portland and the topic of Chinese watches came up. The quality of chinese watches is very good. Far better then 5 years ago. For years they have made parts for Swiss companies including ETA. They are in the same position the Japanses were 40 years ago. We know how that story went.

I do not wish Invicta ill will as I own several. I just think they need to step up the QC and CS and stop the carnival barker sales pitch.


To hell with that. Any company that go to the lengths Invicta does to deceive the consumer should suffer the concequences. What good are they if you can't trust what you bought is what it's said to be. I too own several of them but damn right, I wish them ill.
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby LIES ALL LIES!!! » June 1st 2010, 6:13pm

These misleading statements and outright lies have come from the top down. Said and done to stimulate more sales and to con people into thinking they are buying something they are not. The modern day snake oil salesman.

Invicta deserves to be crushed. When the CEO is behind the lies and when the CS and QC are beyond hope of salvation, and their reputation is so bad anyways let alone before this... it's time to put the baby to bed.
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby Mark1 » June 1st 2010, 6:43pm

Well if customs is expected to inspect the dial markings, maybe Invicta ought to train them as QC inspectors. I saw that thread and wondered if Brad would reply as he did if he were still an Admin. It seems to me he is a little more candid in his comments of late. I've never had an issue with Brad and had PMed him in the past if there was anything I wondered about. He's a decent guy as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby Ditchdoc » June 1st 2010, 7:23pm

Mark1 wrote:Well if customs is expected to inspect the dial markings, maybe Invicta ought to train them as QC inspectors. I saw that thread and wondered if Brad would reply as he did if he were still an Admin. It seems to me he is a little more candid in his comments of late. I've never had an issue with Brad and had PMed him in the past if there was anything I wondered about. He's a decent guy as far as I'm concerned.


Agreed Mark. Brad was always fair with me as well. We have exchanged a few PM's in the past and he seems like a good guy. He is definately a company man though.
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby Mark1 » June 1st 2010, 7:27pm

Ditchdoc wrote:
Agreed Mark. Brad was always fair with me as well. We have exchanged a few PM's in the past and he seems like a good guy. He is definately a company man though.


I may be all wrong but I think maybe he got tired of the company line, and stepped down. Could be something else entirely though.
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby Ditchdoc » June 1st 2010, 7:30pm

I had asked why he was no longer admin a week or so ago and nobody seemed to know for sure. He was on there like, 24/7 for a couple of years. The guy had to be burned out as well.
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby Guest » June 2nd 2010, 8:20am

Very interesting. There was another thread last week "Swiss Made or not" where Michael said that all Invicta's marked swiss, they meet guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation. Regarding Brad, he is one of the good guys, someone wrote in regards to why there has been no official statement about the Chinese movements in Swiss watches, "Hey Brad...you don't still have the keys to the Kool Kids forum do you? I'd love to be a fly on the wall" but he never replied to that.
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby Ditchdoc » June 2nd 2010, 8:58am

They are pretty good at damage control because people want to believe them. If you get enough support for an spin, somehow it becomes the truth.

From what I've read of that thread with the case markings and dial markings, their statement if any is bound to be a doozy.
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Corrected description

Postby eddiea » June 2nd 2010, 9:34am

Invicta Men's Russian Diver Swiss Quartz GMT Distressed Leather Strap Watch
Choices: Black or Blue dial

Set a course for style with the Invicta Russian Diver! The 18K rose-gold plated stainless steel case stands out with a special grotesque and yes, a bit bizarre screw-down canteen-style crown protector and chain. The highly polished case sports a coin-edged bezel to really set it apart from the pack, you'll look like a pimp, no doubt.

The breathtaking dial comes in blue sunray or grain-textured black letrine hole matte. The dial has been uniquely perforated to reveal the inner workings of this timepiece's Swiss ISA 8176 Quartz GMT movement, carefully crafted in our state of the art facilities in Wǔhàn China. Tritnite luminous Arabic numerals have been trimmed in rose-tone at every hour position except 2:00... pathetic to begin with our Tritnite becomes totally useless after application... Surrounding the outer dial is a 24-hour GMT scale. GMT stands for Greenwich Mean Time and is the average time that Invicta takes to fuck their costumers from noon to noon. Finally, you'll never forget what day it is again with a date window atop 6:00 and of course if you are bleeding from your ass too.

The genuine leather strap comes in shit brown with the blue choice and vomit black with the black style choice. It has been distressed to give it a rugged and weathered look, using our in house fungus/mold method . You'll attach this handsome strap to your wrist with a rose-tone clasp. Explore the ocean of style captured in the Invicta Russian Diver!


•Strap: Genuine leather
•Movement: Swiss ISA 8176(made in China) Quartz GMT•Crystal: Mineral(it will scratch and fall apart on you in no time, no braking in necessary)
•Crown: Push/pull(is you are lucky)
•Clasp: Buckle
•Strap Measurements: 10" L x 26mm W
•Case Measurements: 52mm (Our Ladies size)
•Water Resistance: 10 ATM - 100 meters - 330 feet (Yeah right)
•Model Numbers:
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Swiss Labeled Dials on Invicta Watches That Have Chineses Movements

Postby koimaster » June 3rd 2010, 8:41am

moved
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby Datsun240Z71 » June 3rd 2010, 11:42am

Eyal's copied and pasted "statement" regarding all things Swiss:

I have been asked to personally clarify the confusion with the markings on the watches. I feel I have a confident and open enough relationship with our customers to make a clear statement and get this matter clarified once and for all. While I know that it is impossible to satisfy everyone, it is our commitment to keep a top level relationship with our very loyal customer base.

There is a definite gray area in the use of the words “Swiss”, “Swiss Made”, “Swiss Movements”, “Swiss Parts”, “Swiss Components”, and “Swiss Registration”. The fact of the matter is that, like in many “multiple-component” products, where the country of origin adds value to the product, we tend to highlight that.

A perfect example is the auto industry. You might buy a Mercedes that is manufactured in Mexico using German engineering, some German parts, etc. The brand focuses on highlighting their “German” standards. Much in the same way, the watch industry does when Swiss is present. Without mentioning brands, it is important to understand that Switzerland almost produces NO watch components except parts associated with the movements, and assembly. What this means is that if you bought a $6000.00 Swiss Made Chronograph from “Brand X”, what you are likely buying is a watch that houses a Swiss Made movement (And even the movement components themselves have their own complicated breakdown value. For instance, even if a movement is “Swiss Made”, it does not mean every part in the movement was made in Switzerland, only a given percentage of that ) and the watch was assembled and tested in Switzerland. We do the same, and hopefully that brings clarity to everyone that when we mark a watch “Swiss Made”, you are buying a Swiss Made watch with a Swiss made movement, that is assembled in Switzerland.

Then we get into the way we use the word “SWISS”. The the word “Swiss” was used on watches as a description for a watch using a movement with Swiss part Origins. This includes movements that are bought from SWISS COMPANIES, with SWISS ENGENEERING, that are tested in Switzerland, but has components that are sent off to the Far East for cost purposes to be assembled. Examples of these are ETA, Ronda, ISA, “Far East versions”. They were developed to assist in delivering the consumer more value, on an otherwise identical item. Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss Movement Far East assembly version. Yes as companies we do call more attention to this than the fact that the movement is assembled in China, but that’s marketing.

Then there is the talk about the Swiss Federation. I cannot speak too much into the Swiss Federation standard because it is a private foreign entity, not a law dictating body, and we do not belong to it for a variety of reasons I prefer not to go into. I respect companies developing a stamp of approval and charging for it, such as COSC, but to be part of a group that develops standards on watches based on the direction of the “big players” in the watch industry, and attempting to apply them to smaller companies without giving them a fair chance, is a monopoly, and I am strongly against that.

I make this statement on a personal level, and hope that it can bring some level of clarity to this discussion.

Sincerely,

Eyal
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Eyal's take on SWISS MADE vs. SWISS, etc.

Postby Datsun240Z71 » June 3rd 2010, 11:58am

Copy and paste from WGs.

Be kind.... English is not his first language.


I have been asked to personally clarify the confusion with the markings on the watches. I feel I have a confident and open enough relationship with our customers to make a clear statement and get this matter clarified once and for all. While I know that it is impossible to satisfy everyone, it is our commitment to keep a top level relationship with our very loyal customer base.

There is a definite gray area in the use of the words “Swiss”, “Swiss Made”, “Swiss Movements”, “Swiss Parts”, “Swiss Components”, and “Swiss Registration”. The fact of the matter is that, like in many “multiple-component” products, where the country of origin adds value to the product, we tend to highlight that.

A perfect example is the auto industry. You might buy a Mercedes that is manufactured in Mexico using German engineering, some German parts, etc. The brand focuses on highlighting their “German” standards. Much in the same way, the watch industry does when Swiss is present. Without mentioning brands, it is important to understand that Switzerland almost produces NO watch components except parts associated with the movements, and assembly. What this means is that if you bought a $6000.00 Swiss Made Chronograph from “Brand X”, what you are likely buying is a watch that houses a Swiss Made movement (And even the movement components themselves have their own complicated breakdown value. For instance, even if a movement is “Swiss Made”, it does not mean every part in the movement was made in Switzerland, only a given percentage of that ) and the watch was assembled and tested in Switzerland. We do the same, and hopefully that brings clarity to everyone that when we mark a watch “Swiss Made”, you are buying a Swiss Made watch with a Swiss made movement, that is assembled in Switzerland.

Then we get into the way we use the word “SWISS”. The the word “Swiss” was used on watches as a description for a watch using a movement with Swiss part Origins. This includes movements that are bought from SWISS COMPANIES, with SWISS ENGENEERING, that are tested in Switzerland, but has components that are sent off to the Far East for cost purposes to be assembled. Examples of these are ETA, Ronda, ISA, “Far East versions”. They were developed to assist in delivering the consumer more value, on an otherwise identical item. Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss Movement Far East assembly version. Yes as companies we do call more attention to this than the fact that the movement is assembled in China, but that’s marketing.

Then there is the talk about the Swiss Federation. I cannot speak too much into the Swiss Federation standard because it is a private foreign entity, not a law dictating body, and we do not belong to it for a variety of reasons I prefer not to go into. I respect companies developing a stamp of approval and charging for it, such as COSC, but to be part of a group that develops standards on watches based on the direction of the “big players” in the watch industry, and attempting to apply them to smaller companies without giving them a fair chance, is a monopoly, and I am strongly against that.

I make this statement on a personal level, and hope that it can bring some level of clarity to this discussion.

Sincerely,

Eyal
Randy in Nashville
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby boscoe » June 3rd 2010, 12:01pm

"There is a definite gray area in the use of the words “Swiss”, “Swiss Made”, “Swiss Movements”, “Swiss Parts”, “Swiss Components”, and “Swiss Registration”. The fact of the matter is that, like in many “multiple-component” products, where the country of origin adds value to the product, we tend to highlight that."

TRANSLATION: We are tricking you. You can't believe a word I say. Ever.

"Yes as companies we do call more attention to this than the fact that the movement is assembled in China, but that’s marketing."

TRANSLATION: Would you like to fuck my grandmother? I sell her to you cheap. She Swiss, I swear! She gave a Swiss guy a BJ once.


The the word “Swiss” was used on watches as a description for a watch using a movement with Swiss part Origins.

TRANSLATION: There is a sucker born every minute and I have the ethics of a crack whore with AIDS. Before I truly became a total scum bag, I used to label products like this Swiss Parts.

"I cannot speak too much into the Swiss Federation standard because it is a private foreign entity, not a law dictating body, and we do not belong to it for a variety of reasons I prefer not to go into."

TRANSLATION: The Swiss Federation will not accept us because we are liars, cheats, steal intellectual property, produce crap and have no ethics. Plus it costs money and I am a greedy prick.

"I make this statement on a personal level, and hope that it can bring some level of clarity to this discussion."

TRANSLATION: I am a cad and cock-sucking coward. If I was speaking as CEO of Invicta, ShopNBC or the feds might be forced to take some action against me. I will hide this as a personal statement and hope none of the asshats I suckered over the years has the smarts to sue me for fraud.
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby Datsun240Z71 » June 3rd 2010, 12:05pm

That's the way I read it.

JS and THE TBM are now both injured, from being thrown under Eyal's bus!
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby foghorn » June 3rd 2010, 12:13pm

I wonder who wrote that for him!

And I thought Invicta was a "big player"
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby Ditchdoc » June 3rd 2010, 12:57pm

It seems that even JS and MD are tired of making up excuses for Invicta. I'm sure all of the geeks will be starstruck, flattered and completely satisfied with this explanation.

I wonder if thos Mercedes he used as an example German made or German with no reference to the fact that it was assembled in Mexico anywhere on the car or the paperwork. I kinda doubt it.

I would also be curious if other watch companies routinly engages in this practice which seems at best deceptive. Does anyone know?

Invicta doesn't belong to the Swiss federation for reasons he doesn't want to go into but I will. They don't belong because the then couldn't shortcut their components and assembly and would be forced to offer their customers a higer quality watch. It might actually save em some bucks to join. I bet they wouldn't be having to fix the recent speedway issues if they belonged.

Translation of Eyals statement: We use the cheapest components possible and shortcut assembly by doing a majority of our work in China. We then label the watch Swiss, Swiss Made or Swiss Components accordingly to sell them at the highest price possible and still be able to defend our deceptions in a court of law. I hope this clears it up for my loyal suckers...uh...I mean customers.
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Re: Swissese documents

Postby Ditchdoc » June 3rd 2010, 1:12pm

Complete Horseshit!

Translation of Eyals statement: We use the cheapest components possible and shortcut assembly by doing a majority of our work in China. We then label the watch Swiss, Swiss Made or Swiss Components accordingly to sell them at the highest price possible and still be able to defend our deceptions in a court of law. I hope this clears it up for my loyal suckers...uh...I mean customers.
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