Diving with Submariner,Sinn U1,Turtle & PADI

Dedicated to Dive watches

Re: Diving with Submariner,Sinn U1,Turtle & PADI

Postby bedlam » March 19th 2017, 7:58am

iwasbanned wrote:
bedlam wrote:This one is line ball, if you count the number as a marker.


Sorry, what do you mean by line ball? Not familiar with the term.

Doesn't look like that watch has Divers XXXm on it though, so it isn't certified. In any case, since it doesn't clearly mark the 5 minute markings, it isn't ISO compliant.

Line ball means its close.

It has lines or numbers to mark the 5 min periods, so it complies that way.

My issue was that it has a dash missing on the 10 min marker. So it complies only if you accept the number as the marker for that minute.
"If I could put a finger on the moment we genuinely fucked ourselves, it was the moment we decided that data was something you could use words like believe or disbelieve around...

The Water Knife

Paolo Bacigalupi
User avatar
bedlam
Master of Time
 
Posts: 6989
Joined: November 12th 2011, 11:00pm
Location: Fremantle, Australia (GMT +8)

Re: Diving with Submariner,Sinn U1,Turtle & PADI

Postby bedlam » March 19th 2017, 7:59am

iwasbanned wrote:
bedlam wrote:
That is the SKX style bezel that's been around for ever. Its going to come up with stuff designed before the standard came into being. Same issue with the Sub.


You don't think it's an issue that they use "Divers XXXm" on the dial, indicating ISO certification, but aren't compliant? Seems invicta-esque.

I said it is an issue, that they are taking a risk.
"If I could put a finger on the moment we genuinely fucked ourselves, it was the moment we decided that data was something you could use words like believe or disbelieve around...

The Water Knife

Paolo Bacigalupi
User avatar
bedlam
Master of Time
 
Posts: 6989
Joined: November 12th 2011, 11:00pm
Location: Fremantle, Australia (GMT +8)

Re: Diving with Submariner,Sinn U1,Turtle & PADI

Postby iwasbanned » March 19th 2017, 8:05am

bedlam wrote:I said it is an issue, that they are taking a risk.


I doubt it. Seiko is a respectable company. I suspect that the language isn't as hard and fast as "minute scale" meaning every minute. The hard and fast requirement appears to be every 5 minutes clearly marked. And even that appears to have some leeway.
User avatar
iwasbanned
Master of Time
 
Posts: 5424
Joined: July 13th 2010, 10:00pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Diving with Submariner,Sinn U1,Turtle & PADI

Postby bedlam » March 19th 2017, 8:11am

iwasbanned wrote:
bedlam wrote:That is the SKX style bezel that's been around for ever. Its going to come up with stuff designed before the standard came into being. Same issue with the Sub.

You don't think it's an issue that they use "Divers XXXm" on the dial, indicating ISO certification, but aren't compliant? Seems invicta-esque.

Honestly, I think its ignorance. People in engineering and marketing who haven't really looked at the wording. Its the same issue with Doxa using orange without realising it doesn't work at depth.

The Turtle has borrowed the look of the SKX, which took it from the 62MAS. The bezel was designed before the standard. But I agree its not compliant and Seiko need to pay more attention to their claim.
"If I could put a finger on the moment we genuinely fucked ourselves, it was the moment we decided that data was something you could use words like believe or disbelieve around...

The Water Knife

Paolo Bacigalupi
User avatar
bedlam
Master of Time
 
Posts: 6989
Joined: November 12th 2011, 11:00pm
Location: Fremantle, Australia (GMT +8)

Re: Diving with Submariner,Sinn U1,Turtle & PADI

Postby bedlam » March 19th 2017, 8:15am

iwasbanned wrote:
bedlam wrote:I said it is an issue, that they are taking a risk.


I doubt it. Seiko is a respectable company. I suspect that the language isn't as hard and fast as "minute scale" meaning every minute. The hard and fast requirement appears to be every 5 minutes clearly marked. And even that appears to have some leeway.

Mmm. You seem to place a lot of trust in 'authorities'. The language is pretty easy to follow, but clearly its not being applied strictly. I think it should be though.

More importantly, the watch needs to function well. More markings is better...the whole 60 is idea and only putting the 5 min marks in isn't.
"If I could put a finger on the moment we genuinely fucked ourselves, it was the moment we decided that data was something you could use words like believe or disbelieve around...

The Water Knife

Paolo Bacigalupi
User avatar
bedlam
Master of Time
 
Posts: 6989
Joined: November 12th 2011, 11:00pm
Location: Fremantle, Australia (GMT +8)

Re: Diving with Submariner,Sinn U1,Turtle & PADI

Postby iwasbanned » March 19th 2017, 8:21am

bedlam wrote:Mmm. You seem to place a lot of trust in 'authorities'. The language is pretty easy to follow, but clearly its not being applied strictly. I think it should be though.

More importantly, the watch needs to function well. More markings is better...the whole 60 is idea and only putting the 5 min marks in isn't.


Isn't the ISO itself an authority?

From Seiko's own website:

During the development of the ISO standard, Seiko worked with the organization to adopt the standard to match the actual use of diver's watches in the deep sea. In 1996, again with Seiko's participation, ISO6425 with annex, about diver's watches for mixed gas diving, was issued.


So I do assume that they know what they are doing. Unless they are lying about their participation.
User avatar
iwasbanned
Master of Time
 
Posts: 5424
Joined: July 13th 2010, 10:00pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Diving with Submariner,Sinn U1,Turtle & PADI

Postby codguy » March 19th 2017, 8:24am

Now I get it.
The Rolex isn't a ISO dive watch because it is lacking some bezel markings........ but some Japanese models are ISO, despite lacking some bezel markings.
Makes perfect sense to me now.
.



Image
User avatar
codguy
ASSHAT
 
Posts: 5054
Joined: June 9th 2011, 10:00pm

Re: Diving with Submariner,Sinn U1,Turtle & PADI

Postby eddiea » March 19th 2017, 9:20am

codguy wrote:Now I get it.
The Rolex isn't a ISO dive watch because it is lacking some bezel markings........ but some Japanese models are ISO, despite lacking some bezel markings.
Makes perfect sense to me now.

Simply put,
The Rolex Sub. makes the ISO 6524 irrelevant.....
eddiea
Founding Member & Master of Time
 
Posts: 10669
Joined: December 25th 2009, 11:00pm

Re: Diving with Submariner,Sinn U1,Turtle & PADI

Postby codguy » March 19th 2017, 9:37am

eddiea wrote:
codguy wrote:Now I get it.
The Rolex isn't a ISO dive watch because it is lacking some bezel markings........ but some Japanese models are ISO, despite lacking some bezel markings.
Makes perfect sense to me now.

Simply put,
The Rolex Sub. makes the ISO 6524 irrelevant.....


Thanks Eddie, the picture just became even clearer!
.



Image
User avatar
codguy
ASSHAT
 
Posts: 5054
Joined: June 9th 2011, 10:00pm

Re: Diving with Submariner,Sinn U1,Turtle & PADI

Postby bedlam » March 19th 2017, 5:31pm

iwasbanned wrote:
bedlam wrote:Mmm. You seem to place a lot of trust in 'authorities'. The language is pretty easy to follow, but clearly its not being applied strictly. I think it should be though.

More importantly, the watch needs to function well. More markings is better...the whole 60 is idea and only putting the 5 min marks in isn't.


Isn't the ISO itself an authority?

From Seiko's own website:

During the development of the ISO standard, Seiko worked with the organization to adopt the standard to match the actual use of diver's watches in the deep sea. In 1996, again with Seiko's participation, ISO6425 with annex, about diver's watches for mixed gas diving, was issued.


So I do assume that they know what they are doing. Unless they are lying about their participation.

My understanding is the ISO processes are just an agreed process. I don't think the actual products are independently tested either, its up to the company to assess their own compliance. What happens if they say they comply when they aren't? Not sure if there is any sanction other than it harms their reputation.

For me there are 2 key things in place. The best functionality possible for a dive watch bezel is to have a marked 1 minute scale up to 60 and to have the 5 min marks marked clearly. For usability, that is perfect.

The second issue is the wording of the ISO. The wording in the standard reflects the above approach exactly, so best functionality would seem to have been its original intent.

Then we are left with more dive watches that don't meet the standard than do (with some of them claiming compliance). Is it ignorance? Probably. Lots of people do focus on the 5 min markers being clear and seem to not pay attention to the requirement for a minute track up to 60. I think that is because so many iconic designs influence what people expect to see in a dive watch and the Rolex and old style Seiko bezels only strictly comply with the 5 min requirement.

Perhaps they need to adjust the ISO? That would be a shame as it encourages a bezel design that is the most functional. And functionality is where the old Seiko and the Rolex designs differ. On the 62MAS bezel its really easy to read exact minutes at a glance: ( I...20...I...30...I ) on the Sub bezel it isn't ( I 20 I 30 I ). As a diver using that tool the difference is important.

You raised some great points Juan :-)
"If I could put a finger on the moment we genuinely fucked ourselves, it was the moment we decided that data was something you could use words like believe or disbelieve around...

The Water Knife

Paolo Bacigalupi
User avatar
bedlam
Master of Time
 
Posts: 6989
Joined: November 12th 2011, 11:00pm
Location: Fremantle, Australia (GMT +8)

Re: Diving with Submariner,Sinn U1,Turtle & PADI

Postby jaw » March 19th 2017, 5:44pm

:wqee:

TemerityB wrote:No dog in this hunt; I just want to say how amazingly cool it is to be part of a watch forum where dive watches are discussed by people who actually dive.
User avatar
jaw
Watchlord WIS
 
Posts: 5156
Joined: July 22nd 2010, 10:00pm

Re: Diving with Submariner,Sinn U1,Turtle & PADI

Postby bedlam » March 19th 2017, 9:09pm

eddiea wrote:
codguy wrote:Now I get it.
The Rolex isn't a ISO dive watch because it is lacking some bezel markings........ but some Japanese models are ISO, despite lacking some bezel markings.
Makes perfect sense to me now.

Simply put,
The Rolex Sub. makes the ISO 6524 irrelevant.....

Agreed. ISO 6425 is completely irrelevant to over-priced sports watches.

:vrw:

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
"If I could put a finger on the moment we genuinely fucked ourselves, it was the moment we decided that data was something you could use words like believe or disbelieve around...

The Water Knife

Paolo Bacigalupi
User avatar
bedlam
Master of Time
 
Posts: 6989
Joined: November 12th 2011, 11:00pm
Location: Fremantle, Australia (GMT +8)

Previous

Return to Dive Watches

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests