In house movements...

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In house movements...

Postby biglove » February 26th 2015, 10:48pm

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Re: In house movements...

Postby conjurer » February 26th 2015, 11:46pm

An interesting article indeed, Loaf.

Also interesting is how the reviewers continued to bring up the Japanese as true manufactures, as opposed to the Swiss, who are increasingly sclerotic with their stuff.

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Re: In house movements...

Postby hcharles » February 27th 2015, 2:16am

Interesting article. It does have a Swiss bias over Seiko, Citizen and Orient.
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Re: In house movements...

Postby robatsu » February 27th 2015, 8:43am

hcharles wrote:Interesting article. It does have a Swiss bias over Seiko, Citizen and Orient.


I got a somewhat different impression, that while holding the party line, some were telegraphing, "Hey all you manufacture geeks, get off your Swiss high horses, if manufacture is objectively your bag, the Japanese Big Three are as gangsta as they come". It was sort of like newsreels of POWs forced to be spouting their captor's spiel, but sending morse code with their eye blinks.

But maybe I was reading more into it than was there.
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Re: In house movements...

Postby fenny » February 27th 2015, 9:43am

I had to look up sclerotic.
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Re: In house movements...

Postby TemerityB » February 27th 2015, 9:59am

conjurer wrote:An interesting article indeed, Loaf.

Also interesting is how the reviewers continued to bring up the Japanese as true manufactures, as opposed to the Swiss, who are increasingly sclerotic with their stuff.

The sun rises in the East.


When pigs fly... :lol:

But seriously: Why can't we agree they're on a par?

The problem with many Swiss companies is that too many of them float around going "this movement is all ours!" while importing parts from all over the place. Don't say it if it's not 100 percent in-house; it's like a restaurant that advertises "home cooking."
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Re: In house movements...

Postby jason_recliner » February 27th 2015, 11:38am

It's the problem with the Swiss industry in general. Resting on their laurels for too long, too much smoke and mirrors, not enough adding actual value. So they talk crap to try and convince that Swiss is worth some kind of premium. In the meantime, the Japanese offerings just get better and better.
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Re: In house movements...

Postby Kahuna74 » February 27th 2015, 11:42am

jason_recliner wrote:It's the problem with the Swiss industry in general. Resting on their laurels for too long, too much smoke and mirrors, not enough adding actual value. So they talk crap to try and convince that Swiss is worth some kind of premium. In the meantime, the Japanese offerings just get better and better.

My thoughts exactly.
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Re: In house movements...

Postby biglove » February 27th 2015, 2:56pm

Kahuna74 wrote:
jason_recliner wrote:It's the problem with the Swiss industry in general. Resting on their laurels for too long, too much smoke and mirrors, not enough adding actual value. So they talk crap to try and convince that Swiss is worth some kind of premium. In the meantime, the Japanese offerings just get better and better.

My thoughts exactly.



Yep. Is just a matter of time before "Made in Japan" is the desirable watch vs "Swiss."
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Re: In house movements...

Postby conjurer » February 27th 2015, 3:01pm

biglove wrote:
Kahuna74 wrote:
jason_recliner wrote:It's the problem with the Swiss industry in general. Resting on their laurels for too long, too much smoke and mirrors, not enough adding actual value. So they talk crap to try and convince that Swiss is worth some kind of premium. In the meantime, the Japanese offerings just get better and better.

My thoughts exactly.



Yep. Is just a matter of time before "Made in Japan" is the desirable watch vs "Swiss."


I think that time has come already. That's why I spent $1800 on a Seiko.
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Re: In house movements...

Postby jason_recliner » February 27th 2015, 3:36pm

While I value genuine Japanese (and Swiss) production and manufacture highly, unfortunately Made In Japan means less than Swiss Made. e g the Sumo, produced in China in a Japanese managed factory or some such, is somehow worthy of carrying the MIJ label.
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Re: In house movements...

Postby foghorn » February 27th 2015, 3:47pm

As long as the watch keeps reasonable time I don't give a fuck if it's Swiss, Japanese, or Chinese.
Mass produced or hand made.
Simpleton that I am , the mechanics of a simple Seagull movement impresses me as much as some MB&F abortion driven by some liquid and little chains.
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Re: In house movements...

Postby artman » February 27th 2015, 4:53pm

I learn something new everyday around here.
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Re: In house movements...

Postby robatsu » February 28th 2015, 2:09am

jason_recliner wrote:While I value genuine Japanese (and Swiss) production and manufacture highly, unfortunately Made In Japan means less than Swiss Made. e g the Sumo, produced in China in a Japanese managed factory or some such, is somehow worthy of carrying the MIJ label.


The standard for legally allowing "Made in Japan" on products sold in Japan - it is a valued tag to domestic consumers here in recent years - is a slowly simmering dispute. Manufacturers want it as loose as possible and unions, etc, want it tightened up. IMO, it is overly loose, at least looking at watch offerings, so research is advised. One thing for sure, though, if it doesn't say "Made in Japan", you can be 100% certain that there isn't a thing on the product that has any connection to Japan, as manufacturers these days will use the flimsiest of grounds to attach this designation.

Back when I first started seeing this, little Japanese flags on labels/packaging/signs, it was pretty surprising but it has become very common now in stores and whatnot. I guess that dates me, as I'm more than old enough to remember when "Made in Japan" was sort of an objectionable thing indicating cheapness, offshoring of American jobs, etc., similar to the stigma "Made in China" often has these days.
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Re: In house movements...

Postby hcharles » February 28th 2015, 2:16am

jason_recliner wrote:It's the problem with the Swiss industry in general. Resting on their laurels for too long, too much smoke and mirrors, not enough adding actual value. So they talk crap to try and convince that Swiss is worth some kind of premium. In the meantime, the Japanese offerings just get better and better.


That's about it. The Swiss are anal retentive about maintaining the status quo. The Japanese keep doing new "stuff". The Japanese are innovators, and knocking down old stereotypes. I glad that Japan is making the Swiss nervous.
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Re: In house movements...

Postby robatsu » February 28th 2015, 2:46am

hcharles wrote:
jason_recliner wrote:It's the problem with the Swiss industry in general. Resting on their laurels for too long, too much smoke and mirrors, not enough adding actual value. So they talk crap to try and convince that Swiss is worth some kind of premium. In the meantime, the Japanese offerings just get better and better.


That's about it. The Swiss are anal retentive. The Japanese keep doing new "stuff". The Japanese are innovators, and knocking down old stereotypes.


One thing that has been a little bit under the radar has been Seiko's diashield and now comfotex, especially with regards to titanium. Diashield, the earlier iteration, which a lot of people experienced on the Shogun, was pretty impressive in scratch resistance and appearance, basically got me to consider ti watches again after some less than satisfactory experiences with them back in the nineties (too easily scratched, sort of unwanted yellowish coloring). And recently, I got SDGZ013/15 with the comfotex, pretty amazing stuff there, you wouldn't ever guess, based on appearance, that it was ti, has the exact same coloring/polish of SS. And the scratch protection is unreal, no hairlines, etc. IMO, as this stuff gets used more, and I'm sure Seiko is figuring out how to drive down the cost of it, it starts recalibrating what you think a used watch should look like. I'm a little careless in my wearing and handling and my SDGZ015 I've been wearing, maybe using magnification you could detect a difference but just handing it to someone, I don't think anyone could reliably distinguish it from an unworn watch.
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Re: In house movements...

Postby TemerityB » February 28th 2015, 9:21am

I think the lost point to some folks is that we are gonna need the Japanese companies. While Swatch continues to limit first the sale of their auto movements (and next, the parts need to maintain them), there's going to be a need for more automatic movements from different sources. Where are all the micros and startups getting their autos from? Miyota, for the most part. If this keeps up, pretty soon, the Swiss are gonna look around and find that nobody will care whether they are offering movements and parts, because the market will have sailed on them in just a few years.

Anybody that knows me here knows I'm a Swiss watch fan first and foremost, but the Swiss and their "It's my ball and I'm going home" attitude pisses me off as much as anyone else - and now with the advent of smart and iWatches coming imminently, they better damn hope they don't get another quartz revolution on their hands. Add to that their bent on snooty poot marketing instead of educating consumers as to their merits, and you have a perfect recipe for a slump.
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Re: In house movements...

Postby conjurer » February 28th 2015, 9:59am

TemerityB wrote:I think the lost point to some folks is that we are gonna need the Japanese companies. While Swatch continues to limit first the sale of their auto movements (and next, the parts need to maintain them), there's going to be a need for more automatic movements from different sources. Where are all the micros and startups getting their autos from? Miyota, for the most part. If this keeps up, pretty soon, the Swiss are gonna look around and find that nobody will care whether they are offering movements and parts, because the market will have sailed on them in just a few years.

Anybody that knows me here knows I'm a Swiss watch fan first and foremost, but the Swiss and their "It's my ball and I'm going home" attitude pisses me off as much as anyone else - and now with the advent of smart and iWatches coming imminently, they better damn hope they don't get another quartz revolution on their hands. Add to that their bent on snooty poot marketing instead of educating consumers as to their merits, and you have a perfect recipe for a slump.


All very good points, T. I myself don't quite understand Swatch's decision on stopping movement sales to third parties; I would assume that ETA makes more than enough to supply the other Swatch companies, and then sellling off extra movements to third parties would be good business sense.

Of course, Swatch cut off sales (which is, really, their perfect right) to drive competitors out of business, or at least force competitors to buy movements elsewhere, probably Japan, which would further devalue their products by making the "Swiss Made" label harder to achieve.

The entire in-house movement deal is a bone of contention because making one's own movements is (and always has been) ruinously expensive. Most small companies don't have the capital to invest in the time and manufacturing involved.

This is the reason that the Japanese companies have become, out of necessity, very large and vertically integrated, while most of the Swiss companies have remained relatively small, but grouped into larger corporate entities like the Swatch Group or Richemont or LVMH. Also, apart from a few very exclusive and very small companies, the Swiss watchmaking companies have pretty much stopped development of movements, slapping in a 2824 and calling it a day.
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Re: In house movements...

Postby Luftwafflles » February 28th 2015, 12:52pm

Admittedly, being a philistine, I never understood the big deal about a movement being in house. If a movement is reasonably reliable, and reasonably accurate, who gives a fuck if the parts are imported from Mars? Is it just the props to the manufacturer that makes all the parts in house? If so, those are some pretty expensive props. Particularly since those companies do nothing to show evidence of such claims, beyond their assurance.
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Re: In house movements...

Postby TemerityB » February 28th 2015, 1:55pm

Luftwafflles wrote:Admittedly, being a philistine, I never understood the big deal about a movement being in house. If a movement is reasonably reliable, and reasonably accurate, who gives a fuck if the parts are imported from Mars? Is it just the props to the manufacturer that makes all the parts in house? If so, those are some pretty expensive props. Particularly since those companies do nothing to show evidence of such claims, beyond their assurance.


I had a friend that worked for a big watch retailer (I won't mention which one, but the job fit him to a "T"), and he used to make fun of watch blogs and sites because of all the complaining about where movements and parts were made. To paraphrase: "Hey, does your watch run? Does it keep accurate time? Then what the fuck are you complaining about?"
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Re: In house movements...

Postby conjurer » February 28th 2015, 3:05pm

TemerityB wrote:
Luftwafflles wrote:Admittedly, being a philistine, I never understood the big deal about a movement being in house. If a movement is reasonably reliable, and reasonably accurate, who gives a fuck if the parts are imported from Mars? Is it just the props to the manufacturer that makes all the parts in house? If so, those are some pretty expensive props. Particularly since those companies do nothing to show evidence of such claims, beyond their assurance.


I had a friend that worked for a big watch retailer (I won't mention which one, but the job fit him to a "T"), and he used to make fun of watch blogs and sites because of all the complaining about where movements and parts were made. To paraphrase: "Hey, does your watch run? Does it keep accurate time? Then what the fuck are you complaining about?"


Not being a gearhead, but if I got the same response from a salesman at the Ferrari dealership, I'd probably go looking at Lamborghinis.
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